Redefined Interactions: Transforming User Experience with Intents | Devcon SEA

[Music] [Music] hello hello hello everyone uh well thank you for joining us um we are here to discuss um about how intents or or intents are reshaping the user experience uh in Defi and from simplifying complex operations or complex transactions in in blockchain uh to increasing security and oh thank you and improving decentralization so I'm very happy to be here and I'm very happy to be joined by this group of experts who are uh collaborating with leading protocols on this matter so if it's okay for you we can start with uh with introductions brief introductions from from uh all of us I will let you uh start probably uh Sean do you want to start yeah hey okay cool um hey guys I'm Sean I work at orbs I've been um in the space since uh 2018 uh doing a bunch of stuff I have no web 2 experience so I've been doing it live since um since then and just kind of learning as I as I go along it's been um a lot of fun um at orbs what we're building um is is kind of we kind of call ourselves a L3 for onchain trading um what that actually means in practice is we uh build protocols for D5 Pro for for D um so we have advanced order types um for dexes uh so two op and limit orders um we have another protocol called liquidity Hub that uses um that's intent in nature in terms of it Aggregates all the liquidity on chain we use par swap as a good friend of ours for that and um and then we're we're doing some stuff now with um with pers as well that's also intent based so yeah really excited glad to be up here guys um thanks for inviting me thank you uh Julie do you want to introduce yourself yep okay uh hi everyone nice to be here too thanks for the invitation I um I work at mimic and I'm in the whole Partnerships Communications PR part of the protocol so at mimic we're a defi automation protocol and what we do is we simplify day-to-day operations by automating and what we're doing right now is we are launching our newest version which is launching our protocol and we would like to everyone to start trying and see the full experience of How It's like to automate on Defi and make it easier for people to interact more and get more access to it and and instead of being like this complex idea that we have and make it more like uh day to-day and basically make it easier yeah cool thank you thank you for joining Dom uh hey everyone I'm Dominic um I'm the head of ecosystem at lifi um we are a bridge and deex aggregator so generally a liquidity aggregation protocol um our main usage is having any to any swaps um across all the major chains and ecosystems we support evm Solana and Bitcoin right now um expanding further into other ecosystems um we do have Lei itself is a B2B product mostly integrated um with big wallets and applications and then it also Powers jumper. exchange which is our own front end interface um which is catered to end users great thank you uh thank you for for your introductions for joining us uh myself I'm uh I'm a I'm leading the operations and the partnership teams at Paras swap Paras swap it's a defi aggregator and we not so recently but it's a kind of new released our intense trading uh solution uh that it's built uh on top of porticus which is uh providing the intense infrastructure for this and why is this important uh for Paras swap Paras swap is leveraging Paras swap Delta the trading the intense trading solution and this enables our users to uh trade gasless and trade with me protection with it would it wouldn't be possible without intents um so and and it's not a coincidence that we are all sitting here because we are partnering with between all of all of our protocols uh to leverage intents and to bring uh better user experience uh in different use cases so having done this uh these introductions what uh where where probably we can start is we know intents uh will be uh or are tackling the most important or one of the most important challenges uh in defi which is user experience so besides tackling this issue and when we simplify with intense complex transactions or complex operations we are lowering the entry barriers for new users and we are also lowering the existing barriers for existing users so what I wanted to discuss with you is uh how are you seeing intents improving the user experience in your protocols and from your perspective which kind of barriers are we lowering for new users yeah so um I think the first step is starting with like breaking down kind of like what are the parts of this like intent based user flow right you already said it um for the most part um important parts of it is a gasless transaction um it is um a signature-based transaction scheme um and then on the other hand um what is almost like equally used with the word intense is um the term solver which basically is some type of entity call it a market maker routing mechanism or whatever that then is able to actually fulfill these complex order types or sess liquidity um that we're talking about right um at Lei where we're mostly interacting um in a cross-chain environment um for us the most important Point probably is um that gas abstraction um we're actually going to launch um our own version of gas abstraction in the next two weeks probably um and also we are integrating a gas zip into our routing um and and use that for gas refueling on on other chains um which if you're interacting in a cross chain environment is very important because you might want to trade on a chain um that you've never been on so you don't have any gas in your account there um so this this is a very complex and difficult problem or it used to be a very complex and difficult problem as many of you probably know um so for me those are kind of the most important issues that we can um solve with intents um and then there's probably more complex use cases um on top of that that these two teams are tackling which yeah they can talk about yeah well I can continue because I can take your point and reaching more use cases which is basically what we're aiming by using the well the mimic infra and by partnering with you guys is the possibility to scale on that and the whole that decentralization but it's really like important for the user to know what it what it needs to be done so if you know what action you want to take what intent then all the rest can be taken careed of and that's what def is about and that's what we're aiming with this not only for users that know how dii works but for those also that don't know about it but want to get into so if you know what slippage you want to set what first goal you want to set and that makes it much easier in the whole interaction yeah so um for us at orbs we have um I mentioned at the beginning that we have an onchain sort of aggregator it's for spot markets um and we actually integrate that directly with Dex uis um so it's called liquidity Hub it's on um quick swap uh uh spooky swap on Phantom if you guys remember that there's a phantom chain and it's not just a wallet um I got as that earlier that's why I'm chuckling about it um as well as um Thea on BMB um and so when users come to swap on these dexes um we do an RFQ on the back end on on orbs layer 3 rather we call I don't know we call it a back end um and that uh kind of abstracts the complexity of having users need to go to an aggregator um and and search for the best price themselves um in addition to this um we also have got gasless transactions as I think everyone else up up here has mentioned um and I think these two things are are really um kind of the core the the underscoring of of what we're doing great so uh it's uh it's not a coincidence that the three of you mentioned uh abstracting complexity from users uh from different different different in different ways uh in order to make their lives EAS easier uh and maybe not have them deciding on things that they don't care that much or most users don't care that much and myself personally I have found myself in uh not having gas on the destination chain when bridging and that blocking me from doing whatever I was trying to do having to set up uh lots of uh uh configurations that probably I don't care or I prefer that someone else decides for me um and when using different dexes uh not having to maybe go to a meta agregator but rather going through something like a liquidity Hub so I can I can get a better a better quote and so I think we are on the path with intents on different protocols in different ways uh to simplify this uh this experience what um what I see from from my personal view is I see lots of protocols that are uh adopting intents uh and this is kind of uh it has come a rise it has become a race of uh speed of innovation versus scalability so deploying intents or implementing intents uh it's not easy it's not something that can be done from one day to the other so what I wanted to to ask you is about your point of you regarding the speed of deployment the speed of innovation versus the um scalability and how to design uh scalable solutions that can leverage intents in the future uh have you have you found um how you find trouble implementing this how you found trouble in finding Scala Solutions and how did you solve those yeah um I can start um I think the the way that we look at that um is probably the one where there's the most problems with this as our like frame of reference is kind of a multi-chain environment and um I mean it starts with just like it starts with finding something that can work on um all the chains that you want to be on right and let let's maybe start out just talking one execution environment let's say we we just stay within the evm even then that means if if something like Lei is you know expanding to new chains and we use something like Gip for example to um have this kind of like refuel feature that means that um Gip needs to scale with our own expansion right so we are mostly an aggregation protocol so we don't build things ourselves necessarily but more and more so we found ourselves in kind of that tough spot where you have to start building things yourself or you have to build something that's more similar to a Marketplace which is kind of like what Paras is building um to attract solvers to attract agents that can execute these transactions across many many chains so when we start from there um obviously we have certain Pathways that are very crowded right like every solver wants to solve on Bas every solver wants to solve on arbitrum every solver you know eventually wants to solve on like bar chain or Monet whenever these chains are launching um for the more long tale of chains um that's probably more difficult um there might have to be different solutions of how to do that and then the other issue of scalability that comes to be is like how do you do that cross different virtual machines um and how do these agents and the protocols that have the marketplaces start talking to each other across these environments and then we have to go into something like message passing um we have to go into something like building multiple versions of these protocols so um I think when it comes to this end of the scalability we're still pretty early um and nobody has like really figured that out yet but um if you think about it we just talked about how these intent types basically make the ecosystem much more much easier to use where ecosystems where you don't have all these things yet you kind of it's It's kind of the similar the difference between a transaction and intent right is like you have to find a pathway yourself still which makes it like much harder to navigate these um so yeah I think it's it's in some ways if somebody can build something that abstracts all of that way across all these different environments that's probably like the Holy Grail of that entire Market of like liquidity routing but it's a really really tough problem to solve okay so you are focusing on the composability of that uh of that ecosystem besides improving the external experience for user you are also focusing on improving this composability for the protocols that need to connect to to to yeah like just think about something as I said earlier we support Solana evm and Bitcoin but that also means that currently the user has to um use three different wallet types because you need a phantom wallet whatever on Solana and then you need a Bitcoin wallet need whatever you're using on the evm um the end game of this is to have some kind of signature abstraction game that allows you to basically compos signatures across multiple chains probably with something like ZK proofs or MPC or whatever you um prefer cryptographically um and that's kind of like the next level of intense in a way because that's kind of what you guys are doing right you abstracted it on DVM but the next level is how do you make it even more composable across these different ecosystems that's correct okay so the way we see it is more about if you want to like lower that barrier entrance maybe you need to think it as for example if you're in a room you want to communicate to another room if you feel like like two isolated things right if you find the way how to communicate with those like then you can communicate to others too right and you can get to more and more and more places so it's about looking at that connector and it may happens all the time with all of our times we have and all the people that want to say hey I want to automate I want to do this and that we act as intermediaries to the solution so intents for us are that that looking for that path that execution plan that you want to have and seek the best way to get all those connections and get to more and more use cases scalability cation so kind of uh standardizing those connections so using the same connection that you have from one room going going to the example from one room to the other but also to connect other other partners for you for example yeah it's going like like KN how we have in like it happens with some protocols and then we can like have the experience that we have with one and then standardize it in order like to reach more and access like more information on that great yeah so for sorry so for us um I think the biggest thing was um for for liquidity Hub um we'd have um dexes that really really want to integrate um the the the the protocol on on their UI but then you know when we look at the actual chain itself there's maybe only one or two um solvers there that are that are facilitating orders on on the on the Chain so for you know for something like polygon where um you know we have everyone added um odos open uh oos open oer Power Swap obviously um and offchain liquidity as well it's like very easy um but like what D is saying when you go to these like further and further chains where there's just not as much of an ecosystem buil built up there um you know there there's there's only so much uh there's only so many pools that you can that you can reach um and you know and then taking that one step further um you know to bring offchain liquidity into these pool into this Marketplace is even like another crazy step um and and requires a lot of uh development effort and and and OB obviously Capital um so from our perspective um that that's been the biggest the biggest and and most challenging hurdle but it actually I think it actually makes sense that you start with the let's call it the lwh hanging fruit where that you can integrate easily and and fast and then you move into the more complex but probably the ones that will that you select or you prioritize the ones that will be adding more value uh to your to your ecosystem and you focus on on implementing uh those um thank you uh if if I may add here something that I think it's important for scalability and it's a concept that we didn't mention uh it's the concept of modularity so I think modularity is going to play an important role in in the intense uh scaling um for example the the infrastructure that Paras swap is leveraging to enable uh intents uh it's a modular infrastructure what does this means it's uh it means for example that the swap module that Paras swap it's leveraging to enable intents uh it's a module that was built exactly with this use case exactly for this use case uh if we want to enable other uh modules then we need to develop that module and it's probably easier to escalate things by module rather than just escalating all the use cases uh at once uh so I think uh modularity will play an important role because you can think about modularity then you can start connecting the different modules and I go to the to the connecting rooms that you were saying um if you start connecting mod mod and each module enables a use case let's say uh swap module Bridge module cross chain module uh you can start mixing the usage of this module to enable different features uh on the different protocols UI so I think that would be an important concept that at some point it's going to be uh more spreaded uh around the intense ecosystem um now now I want you I I want to take you out of your protocols uh and make a question that it's more related to more related to the general experience through intents so when we when we talk about simplifying user experience uh taking the specifics out of the hands of the users and leaving that to a third party I kind of feel related to a web to experience uh where we have centralized entities centralized actors that decide for the user that take complexity out of users but decide for users so at some points I found myself talking about intents and remind me of the experience we have in web 2 so how how do you think we should find the balance or the switch spot of making users experience better easier but not losing or not uh yeah not losing the decentralization that Defi and ethereum have already uh establish as a kind of a standard yeah I mean I mean first of all if we go from like the solver based system um generally it takes a lot of risk out of um or away from the user because um the way that these um systems usually work is a solver basically more or less instantly fills prefills um the transaction that the user requests um in kind of like an RFQ system as you said and then um on the same chain obviously they're usually more or less Atomic so there isn't too much risk there um once you go across multiple chains um there might obviously be some kind of finality problems and now the solver takes on these finality risks that the user um had before and um the solver as a more professional Market making entity should be better equipped to basically calculate um this finality risk um and then settles through some type of you know intense settlement layer mechanism um so I think from that perspective there there isn't too much risk for the user um I think where the risk becomes more prevalent is when we start thinking about competition as you said earlier um on a chain um that is smaller um there might only be like one or two solvers okay one solver I think everybody here can see the problem with that it's basically a monopoly so the solver can just quote you and obviously he has an information advantage over you unless you're very sophisticated you don't really know if that price you're getting quoted right now is a good price for you or not unless you go back to basically doing all the research that you would have to do yourself in a transaction um based um system but even let's say if there are two or three solvers um the the problem of collusion could still be pretty prevalent where the solvers just basically talk to each other and they're like hey look let's all just like quote a little bit higher price and we skim some money of the user and then we share that in the end so for solver systems to actually um sufficiently work we need a competitive market and creating a competitive market is um a question of you know demand at the end of the day if there's enough demand then enough solvers will show up um but also on their end it becomes about like scalability of infrastructure again where you know demand might pop up anywhere at any point in time and a lot of that is like uninformed flow in a sense so I think Dux can look good but it's kind of like getting scammed in a taxi you know you really have to know the environment like if you guys grab a taxi here in Thailand you're not a local you don't know the prices how would you know if you're getting scammed right now or not so uh you would put the focus in decentralizing the the whole infrastructure I would say or increasing the the competitiveness of the competition increasing I think yeah competition is more important than decentralization from a perspective of you know like competition could also be great between tree solver if the system is designed well enough that they cannot collude with each other so yeah designing the system in a way that keeps everybody competitive with each other is very important makes sense thank you um the way I think about it and short experience I have like um well recent experience in web 2 and now web free is that user experience is really important in web 2 but for web free it's getting there it's improving a lot but if you need to risk something will be that and main focus should stay on transparency and that's thing with centralization and everything but it's really important to be transparent and if there's competition and everything and everything like keeps going forward and we improve and we get better in models and everything I think that that's like the most important thing that we should focus and especially when we're doing this kind of things right and it's like money from others and you keep put the Uber taxi example and the taxi where you know it really well the Uber not so much so it's like but if we don't know it so well so if we keep transparent and it's better and it will get you more users eventually one one maybe one more point that I just realized um adding onto this is the advantage that blockchains don't have is once the transaction is settled and inscribed in the blockchain it's there so that data will be available forever so unlike web 2 where maybe we have that kind of obscured and we don't really know somebody could actually go in and kind of prove to you later on that you were getting scammed and this is a huge Advantage obviously that blockchains have over like as an open system over maybe the more closed systems and web tool if if I may if I may complement uh what what you are saying um it feels it feels a bit like uh we are simplifying and taking complexity out of users but at the same time we need to be transparent about how we are building the protocols which can be which can end up being more complex for the user to understand that the initial let's say slipage or gas gas setup so I think the the the the point here is that we need to make sure that the infrastructure or the uh or the ecosystem is decentralized or it has enough competitors so they canot collude or they cannot screw the users but uh it's more for making sure that the user experience is going to be good rather than to explaining that to everyone or to the users because uh I don't know how how how we would explain how a complex system like an intent system worked to a retail user for example I I don't I don't know how we would find the way I think um I think ux is super important and like I don't I don't think anything that I I don't think NE necessarily that you know you you never want to at least with intense you don't want to ever compromise that ux that users have now at least um you know you have a better price so you want to keep the better price and you have this better user experience it's better than having to to search for it yourself it's it's much easier for for for everyone I would say just to add on to what everyone else has already kind of echoed but um just just the way that these Protocols are designed to make sure that they they're open um that there's clear documentation so that there's not it's not like an airline industry where the barrier to entry is like you know it's not possible um so you know if someone wants to be a solver if someone wants them um route liquidity if someone wants them if a market maker wants to earn uh money this way that that that there's clear documentation um and that Protocols are set up to um be open you know and and have these these ethos that we're that we're kind of discussing and decentralization um so that they can easily easily do so but I think like a pattern that emerges here is like you just said we're taking complexity away from the user we're giving the complexity to the system so you know there's no um in you know in alchemy there's like the the concept of an equivalent exchange you know you can't you can't just like gain something without losing something else so you can't just make you act like super good without with without increasing the complexity somewhere else right but what we're basically doing here is we're taking that complexity into the back end and as you said for for example like you want to keep that system open okay that sounds great like right we all want open systems but now let's what happens for example if you keep the system open a solver says I'm going to fill this order and then doesn't fill it right so like that means now if you keep the system open that means you need to implement something like slashing and then it becomes kind of a a game of consensus where you're almost basically you're kind of building a blockchain at the end of the day you build you rebuilding consensus into that in some way because you have agents that are kind of like validators in a sense and they do certain tasks and you have to make sure um that they can be like properly incentivized and then also properly um you know slashed or whatever if they misbehave which I mean in in some ways it's great because you it means you can add a token onto the stuff at some point you know but but you went from from infrastructure to uh kind of Economics of the of the of the protocol yeah that's that's what I do sometimes um okay uh we have uh we have few minutes left and I want to leave some time for for questions so my last question would be I believe that the intense ecosystem it's uh just starting so we're probably going to see a lot of innovation in the future so uh where do you see this Innovation happening in the short to midterm uh and also how do you balance this uh with security risks that may come uh with new features new products um or new uh improvements that intents can bring uh sorry so I think I think um so looking ahead I think um we're now kind of building at orbs anyways we're we're we're we think that the next thing is onchain perpetuals um so like if you look at like spot spot Market to sex volumes it's like I think about like I don't remember off the top of my head but it's it's significantly more than it's huge yeah it's huge it's huge on dexes it's it's much larger than the than the percentage of um Perpetual trading happening on dex's um which is about like 1% and the other 99.9% is on is on is on centralized exchanges um so we think that there's like one there's a huge Market opportunity here uh people want to trade um uh per on chain because you know there's a lot of counterparty risk that you have with Sexes as yeah I don't I don't think we need to go down the memory lane um so we can skip over that for now but yeah yeah so I think that for us this is kind of where we're headed in in this direction um and yeah in terms of uh security risks it really just depends on the protocol at the end of the day so yeah is that uh kind of an alpha that you're giving I mean you could take it as that it depends on on how you want to look at it um yeah I saw something on Twitter that was like I think it was like the GMX model is like um like like some of the pools are getting like locked or something as we're in like an up only Market um so you know and Tents are potentially potentially the way the way that that that it's going to be yeah I mean there's a lot of Builders around it still so so yeah thank you okay I'm going to bring a concept that eventually was going to be in our conversation it's going to be Ai and with nimic right now we're building a free layer protocol with intents in Ai and the idea is to create the best execution plan in order for the user to later have the control and like delegate what you want to do and everything but then you have the control to sign and then executed so that's the main role in security that we have and super important because we want to give the US for that control but we also have all the track record from before we've been in the market for three years we know how stuff is done and we know how's the best way to with the mimic safeguards to have it all like back up and making sure the user doesn't need to worry about that because of course it's like a concern and everything but it's like you want to have someone that that's got your back so that's like the the main thing for us and that's what we're building right now and we're launching the protocol because we're a business to business model and we've been with that and we're going to continue with it but we want to give the opportunity to more users to build on top of the protocol and connect and be able to to do this stuff do we have a date for the launch of their protocol it's going to be next year okay you can like check our socials and we're going to be sharing more information sorry I'm from com so of course I'm going to say that but okay thank you but yeah it's coming soon and it's going to be good cool you you the last one to give us some Alpha okay um yeah I mean I think the alpha for any type of protocol that is within the interoperability space um is pretty much the same um I feel like every protocol is working on like some level of First Chain abstraction um I mean that's something that we're looking into I I do not really like the term chain abstraction itself I think it's more like chain agnosticism um because like chain abstraction means that the end user doesn't care about the chain at all but like with the current state of crypto that's not really true users do usually still care what chain they're on for either tribal reasons for reasons of like wanting to farm something uh for security reasons um so um I think we want to at least give um users and that also means companies that work with us the ability to be opinionated about like completely abstracting this away or just partially abstracting this away and then the other thing that I talked about earlier a little bit was like going into virtual machine abstraction like and that to me is like the end game actually um having a unified experience of accessing all of like the crypto world World um and yeah as stated probably some kind of proving schemes um hopefully ZK proofs becoming cheaper is going to play a huge role in this and I think in like the next let's say 18 months we're going to see like the first truly unified accounts like you know people use the word unified account right now but it's really just an evbm balance um but like unified account across all um virtual machine environments great thank you I think I'm I'm the only one missing to give some Alpa uh but as is also related to AI so uh AI agents are plan of are part of our of our road map uh think of an AI agent as uh an entity that can execute complex uh strategies uh in in favor of the user so imagine uh DCA on on a on a certain tokens so be able to buy in at certain points of time and doing this leveraging the security and the decentralization of intents um so we are also going into a AI through through intents so I think we have a little gift for you uh we prepared the poop for the talk uh I hope there are some poop lovers here so uh you should you if you have the po app I think you can scan this QR uh to get a memory of uh this panel that you just attended so uh besides thanking you for attending this uh panel I want to also thank you uh the three of you because it was a a very very good talk uh and now maybe we can have some questions if there are some hello yeah uh my name is Jason and uh and the topic about the int Trad is very interesting uh uh so uh I'm I'm very new here and I just have one question is is that uh uh why you uh when you do kind of uh intend trading uh does it mean that you shift the uh you know um on the uh on the kind of uh risk of uh uh centralization to the backend system and uh and as as I know uh using backend is quite uh you know very um uh using backp and in the system would bring the best uh user experience uh in trading but it will bring some downside and I just want to hear more about it because uh it's very important to us to improve our user experience you do you get my question um if I got it correctly it's uh it's about you're asking if we are uh leaving the centralization for the back end is that is that the is that the question yeah that's my question okay yeah I think it depends what you mean here I think like obviously like every every intense system is at the end of the day an aggregation system and every aggregation system obviously strives to be the sole owner of orderflow um so like if you imagine there to be one of those systems that would be better than all the other ones and obviously if you talk talking from a solver perspective some of these systems are going to have more Network effects than others um then yes there is definitely like some kind of centralization risk that like a winner might take this entire Market but the thing is like as we said this back end will probably be some type of chain with some type of consensus mechanism um so if you look at it from that perspective um it's more of an uh it's more of it's more of a a competitive system but yes in terms of an API you would access probably a simple a single API to um get quotes from the system uh if I may add there I think that uh there will be improvements on the decentralization of the intents existing systems uh I think that today uh it's difficult to fully decentralize an intense system mainly because of the risk that we describ here that uh you cannot ensure that suddenly from one day to the other you have a thousand solvers doing whatever they want on the on the system um but I think it's going to be Progressive So today we're here on the decentralization uh the the intent system are going to slowly start uh to decentralize the different parts of the of the back end until we have until we find a solution that it's a completely or almost completely Ely decentralized I highly doubt that at some point you won't have any API to access that it's not centralized but I don't know maybe maybe uh I'm wrong thank you for the question so we have two more questions here so the next question is are intents the future of all of defi or are there use cases where smart contracts are still useful any of you can take it uh I think I think both can coexist uh both use cases might be uh able to coexist um there are today some use cases um I don't know flash loans for example that might not be might not be a good fit for intents or how the intents uh systems are working today but I think it's uh at some point there is going to be interest or prioritization of these kind of different use cases uh but it's going to be one by one um so I think they might they might coexist uh in a world where um where both use cases can can still uh have I actually think they have to exist right like because liquidity is still going to be in like Unis swap unless it's like an offchain unless everything becomes an offchain fq system which might happen but like even then let's say you want to borrow some money then you have to go to AA you want to do some kind of YN type of Vault stuff that you like basically intense and smart contracts are just they're not really con connected in that sense right smart contracts are protocols or nowadays also accounts if we talk about account abstraction and something like that the intent really is just the way how you express your preferences that that is what an intent is but that that isn't necessarily connected to Smart contracts in anyway smart contracts are how we build um expression of something on chain it's just like a programming language thing at the end of the day which the other thing is like what do I want is a preference um expression okay so we have one more question are Merkle trees the answer for cross intentions again anybody can take I honestly I I don't have a an opinion about the how to solve the cross chain intentions uh I mean merries are probably going to be out of it um in expressing certain things as I said earlier I think the answer for cross chain intentions are probably ZK proofs okay yeah that makes sense uh so we have a question from there yeah just just a question like do you see intense in anything beyond defi other than def have you seen anything any intents being used Beyond D I have heard about some use cases but all theorical I mean I I never saw them uh really implemented but I heard uh and I've been pitched about some uh like real world use cases where you can I don't know rent for example an apartment with uh uh with through intents um but I think we are not there yet uh I think I'm sure that we are not there yet because we are not seeing them being uh implemented in that way but I think it can it can be uh work it can work for other stuff besides D5 besides uh I don't know lending borrowing besides those use cases I think they might work at some point I think the technology has to uh has to evolve in order to take it to other to other places I mean if you think about it like Skys scanner is an intent-based application you go in there you put a flight in and it says you it gives you I mean the difference between intent in in some ways would be the way we see intents is like the solver just fills you the best one and like in Skys scanner you get a couple of options of flights but in similar ways how lei for example works today is you go in and you say I want to go from asset a on chain a to asset chain B on chain B and we still give you options we just don't pick like basically we we're not an opinionated solver as to we don't give you one option we give you multiple options that you can pick from but that's still you still give us an intent and we process that intent and like every type of aggregation protocol in web 2 more or less works in the same way like I want to buy an insurance and then Insurance aggregator gives you you know a couple of options so like intents are not in anyway web tree specific they're just like a way of solving um user experience I think uh doubling down on your example of Skys scanner something that in might soul for example is I want to travel to this destination for this amount of time and I want to stay in these places and have the whole solution built for you like book your book your uh airplane tickets book your hotel uh book the stuff that you want to do and reserve your uh your dinners or lunch in restaurants that would be like the uh the the ideal world of an intense um I think it might it might happen at some point but I don't know when or how yeah maybe you can say something because that's kind of the AI use case at the end of the day The Skys scanner thing was I used to use it like all the time but yeah I mean intend is an intention I mean it depends on what context it is but defi abroad other like cases yeah we're not there yet I think we'll see but you want to say something I I think we're yeah I think we're good we agree we agree say goodbye yeah so any more questions we have one more minute here if not we can thank the speakers again thank you so much for the wonderful talk and thank you