“Most VPNs are lying to you” Sebastian Bürgel Privacy Talk w Peter Farbey | Web3Privacy Now Academy

Hi, I'm Sebastian. I'm VP Tech Hypnosis and founder of Hopper.

Um,

hi Sebastian. [laughter]

Nice to meet you.

So, yeah, for the context, we are shooting this in Berlin during web three privacy now hackathon. Uh, yeah, we will have a small talk in a conversation with Sebastian on privacy, agnosis and stuff. Um so for people who don't know you and what you do uh can you like shortly like not 10 seconds but few minutes uh explain your background how did you end up as this position where you are now like a bit of your life professional non-professional whatever you want to share. So I have a background in engineering. So I studied electrical engineering and then pivoted towards microte which has nothing to do really with crypto.

And I think crypto being a new field where most of us are outsiders was kind of one of the things that drew me to it. So I have basically always been interested in coding. I've been coding all sorts of stuff all the time. And I thought, okay, if there's something crazy new coming, I will drop my stuff and I will go all in. And that's basically what I did.

So I defended my PhD and right after was Ethereum Defcon 1. And that was my magic moment when I saw you know Christian right explaining solidity compiler which was super early back then. We didn't have any toolings was I would say the kind of dark era of crypto. Um that was wild. It was really fun to build and yeah I've been working in the space uh ever since h first starting with a company on education in crypto then being a service provider uh just coding Ethereum based applications for money and then we saw that there's something missing like many people frankly always came into the space to make a quick buck right let's be honest that's what the space is and for me it was important over the years to not lose my faith and lose my conviction because of that.

That's something that happens. Some people want to build decentralized and resilient applications. And we realized there was no go-to solution how Alice can talk to Bob in a private way in an anonymous way actually without disclosing her identity to any third parties. And that's how we came up with building Hopper. So Hopper is a mixet that allows Alice to talk to Bob anonymously.

That's what we've been building over the past uh five to six years and uh yeah I'm the founder of Hopper and currently we're building a VPN on top of that mixnet infrastructure called NosisVPN and as the name suggests that's a project that we're building for Nosis DAO which people might know for safe spin-off from Nosis or Cow Swap or more lately maybe Nosis Pay a Visa debit card that you connect directly to your onchain And yeah, so we got funding from Nosis to build NosisVPN and I joined Nosis to not just build NosisVPN, but oversee a bunch of other technologies things. So I joined Nosis as VP tech and yeah, I'm pretty interested in all of that. I think Nosis embodies a lot of my passion for crypto from the privacy side with Hopper to the chain infrastructure with Nosis chain and applications like Nosis Pay, circles, and metric.

Okay, great. And you've mentioned interesting things that you've do you've been doing some sort of education like before in your earlier life let's say so and we are doing this for the academy rights for like educational thing maybe we can start with that like um what do you think like from the angle of like education if there's like someone a person like interested in privacy and just maybe just going in in like 101 level or maybe going deeper like 2011 Um what do you think that like that that person may start with? Maybe you can recommend some resources or tools or you know some educational resources whatever you think that might be useful from your perspective. Yeah.

And how do you really like how to approach that right because it's quite complex this world in a way.

Yeah great question. I would say first of all it's important to consider that crypto is a very open space like web 3 as I rather like to say it to you know make sure it's not just about crypto money or about cryptography so the web 3 is a really open place that welcomes everyone and there's no experts there's absolutely no experts in web 3 just because it's such a new field so you don't have you know 35 years of I don't know Java or Oracle database technology kind of catching up to do. This is new to all of us, right? So, first of all, yeah, it seems complicated and weird, but do dive in. You can um for getting started, it really depends where you start off.

So, I will answer what is closest to me, which is you're some kind of a developer. Um I think it is important to embrace that this is a very new paradigm. uh we're talking about technologies which try to in itself be self-custodial and empowering the individual with privacy but also with self-custody. So we really and this is actually for people who come new it's easier than for people who are switching from web two to web 3. We're not talking client server right we're talking about projects where everyone is equal.

It is really about something where you're not just building a business model for the sake of growing a business for the sake of making just more money for the shareholders. If you're up for that, this will be the most exciting journey of your life. If you kind of really believe in no like, you know, accumulating money to shareholders is the thing that matters to me in my life, the web two is great, but the web 3 is about something new. So this like embracing this deep fundamental change is the most important journey and the learning curve. And here what I would recommend actually is uh a bunch of the blogs of Vitalik like Vitalik founder of Ethereum.

I guess most people know about Vitalik. Um he writes some blogs which are very technical but he writes some on why privacy matters. you know uh why he believes in decentralization and this is what I would recommend as a starting point and from there depending what you're interested in I think like playing a bit around with solidity to develop on top of Ethereum is great and then you know if you're more technical or into applied maths like going into informing yourself about the great um privacy and anonymity tech is really important like familiarize yourself at least on high with zero knowledge tech um you know fully hemorphic encryption uh maybe trusted execution environments mixets uh VPNs all of that like getting an understanding of your toolbox I think it's important and a super interesting journey

yeah yeah okay thank you uh maybe you can share some of the challenges that you had like on your journey both by learning and also by building because you know build stuff especially privacy It's not always easy and like maybe you can share some of the ele challenges you had to overcome and some hoops you went through to build what you have now.

Yeah. So I think some of the challenges are that crypto is crazy distracting. You have bull markets where it's like oh I wasn't trading yesterday. I missed out like on a 100x opportunity because I was coding like or it's a bare market. Holy Like my personal net worth went down like 50% in a day because I don't know, right?

Something crazy happened that I had no influence on. And it's a very noisy environment. And then you see like this hottest trends. Oh, you know, I I missed out on this really cool hip thing that people are talking about on Twitter. It's like that's a challenge.

That's really a mental challenge. And I think it takes some level of being chill with yourself and distance yourself from the noise because I have seen many people who joined the crypto ecosystem and who built some you know yet another per deck on an L2 with like a lending platform and like what's your narrative like what are you really interested in like are you really passionate about that stuff and for me I mean yeah It it took a while and I took that time to find something that I'm really uniquely interested in that I uniquely think makes the world a better place and yeah I hope that people take that time to build up that conviction and that I think is a very important and for me also like it just took some time to understand what's going on and build something that makes sense and not just makes money. Um, yeah, and I I hope that people do dive into that. That's not always easy because again, there's so much distraction.

Yeah, I really like your point on this, let's say, psychological resilience and self-awareness. And it's really cool that you started with that because me personally, I had this experience of like being a founder of a deep tech startup

and it's so complicated. you have so many things to handle at once

and then it's really really hard to like keep in sane and just like feed yourself to care about yourself. So maybe you can give some like advice for Greco like how to say to to stay sane [laughter] in this crazy world of this crypto cycles Twitter wars wars like

yeah I mean I would [clears throat] say I'm still learning and I don't always manage but I think really try to find something that you're truly passionate about. Try not to just find something that VCs want you to do or your you know your parents want you to do or your whatever imposes social pressure upon you but you feel truly passionate about and do that and yeah I do think I have seen many people which lost their conviction because again they work on something like some funny NFT thing because NFT you know is the coolest thing to do. Well, it was the coolest thing to do two years ago. Do you still have conviction to do that now? And some people do and I have huge respect for that and that's great, right?

Uh empowering artists, for example, is something that I find cool, right? It's not something that I build on. It's not my world, but people do. So, find that and like take the time to think about yourself like what you truly want.

I think that is super helpful. Um and find find your niche, right? And I would say coming back to the privacy side, it's actually much easier to find your unique contribution here than in say DeFi or L2s. Like if I think about it, this DeFi ecosystem is so crazy cutthroat competitive. And same for I don't know Ethereum L2s like is it optimistic rollups, CK rollups or you know some some new things base rollups like man there's people who sleep less than you no matter how little you sleep.

And um if that's your edge, well, you're going to have a rough time. And so I would invite more people to think about this privacy field and resilience tech because privacy to me is just one direction of resilience of empowering the individual that truly matters. And yeah, I would say it is much easier here to find something that you can uniquely contribute than in some of these hip spaces of cool new technology that everybody competes on. Sure, maybe there you can raise a $50 million seed round. Um, I've seen many people who didn't do very well after raising a $50 million seat round.

Um, so yeah, be realistic.

Uh, yeah, 100%. So it's not all about money but being true to yourself. But then also there is a money thing right? So imagine I I have my passion in privacy. I want to build something but then how do I stay sustainable?

Where do where or how do I get money? How is it funding? Is it fundraising? Is it something else like like where is where is the money in privacy?

Yeah. Yeah. That's a tough one also that I mean it's quite obvious. I've been struggling with that, you know, raising money for a startup and keeping it going and getting it sustainable. That's what it's all about, right?

It's about getting a project to self- sustain it. Um, and I think most of crypto has not achieved that yet. Most of crypto lifts off of inflationary supply of, you know, some form of a token um, and has not brought it to sustainability. I hope we do. I hope we all I especially wish it to the you know web three privacy ecosystem that we get towards sustainability.

Um okay but to your question if you're getting started what do you do right so first of all you do attend hackathons where you connect with people and maybe you know win a bounty that is just giving you some affirmation that you're on the right track. There are a few like grant opportunities that I think people should go for. Like there is a number of decently funded organizations that do give out grants for building things that matter. Also hear like a word of like a warning. Don't get captured.

There's a ton of L2s out there that's like oh you know you want to build on my cool VC L2 funded chain which has no values except for VC money. It is very easy to say yes we do this we take a very generous grant of 100k and you work on some you know deadend technology that captures you and it is great it's like you know I've been there and it's great to get a 100k grant work on something for four months that entirely derails you be careful of that um but there are grants that you know support you for doing well don't go crazy don't hire a bunch of people before you can you know um have your personal safety net and you know just do something that's sustainable for the financial means that you have there are grants out there um there's organizations that fund early uh like early experimentation research and then you can raise money but I would say think about when you do that yeah

yeah yeah 100% and um yeah that's why we are doing a hackathon now basically [laughter]

perfect yeah So

join web3 privacy now hackathons please do. [laughter]

Yeah please do. It's our first hackathon but I hope not the last one and I hope we'll have much more in future bigger more impactful and yeah that that's actually what we are trying to do here is like so that people build something meaningful and that's why after we have this launchpad program so that if people build something they want to continue building we give them more support more mentorship and more funds for like one month's let's say like online acceleration program.

Yeah. So

let me show web three privacy hackathons a bit like

please

for me it's like [laughter] al also for people who have were new to the space like sometimes you see hackathons which go like this

you go to a hackathon you have between 30 and 50 sponsors of technologies you don't care about like you don't care about I know it you know it everyone knows it you see a bunch of bounties they're going to be between you know 500 bucks to $5,000 for one bounty you combine that you build on an L2 that you don't care about. You bring in a wallet that you don't care about. You bring in like an lending platform that you of course don't care about and an NFT thing, right? So, you have four bounties and you walk out of the weekend with maybe 10K. You have been flying to some destination for a weekend.

You didn't sleep for a weekend. You wasted basically at least a week of your life for that. You got 10K and you feel kind of like, yay, that was fun, but it's a waste of time. So the web 3 privacy now hackathons try to go in the direction of bringing value, bringing something that makes sense. You probably don't walk out with, you know, 10K in cash, but you have, as we just heard, a bunch of, you know, connections, opportunities, talk to people who really care and matter, and hopefully you're able to learn a lot and connect it to something that makes sense.

And that kind of anti-the to how many web 3 hackathons otherwise work I think is extremely valuable.

Thank you.

Okay. Speaking of this um I think really important challenge is to like find and then to choose the idea right.

Yeah

and I think you can share a bit of your knowledge on that. I think both on hackathons and on like business right like how do you do that? How do you know that this idea is the idea I should build? Like your experience.

Yeah, I mean starting with a hackathon, think about what do you actually want to do? Like you can go to a hackathon to learn something new. Let's say you want to learn about a fully hemorphic encryption, right? You see that there is a hackathon where there's people who, you know, for example, have an library or toolkits that you want to uh check out. Um, you know, prepare that.

think a little bit about that before you arrive there ideally and think about what are you interested in if it's learning something I think that's a perfect opportunity um that that is one another opportunity could be well actually I am interested in looking for a job I find that a totally legitimate motivation for a hackathon also and you're saying actually I would like to feel how that organization vibes and how they behave and how they what they actually do and you know again check out like who's involved like what sort of things could I use and you know connect to the people and their tech you will learn much more than in any other way because you can talk to the people which gives you feeling okay these guys are super weird I really don't want to spend my time with them which I think is a good lesson learned and also you learn about the technology like does that stuff actually work does it almost work does it totally not work are they nowhere um these are really these are really good lessons uh to think about so that's that's how I about a hackathon and from there kind of think about what you want to do. If you want to do a startup um I would say it depends what is the problem that you really want to solve and especially when you go to hackathons and listen to this maybe you're maybe a person like I also was you want to dive in like you have a super cool idea like man I need this I want this this is the coolest I ever thought of you can't sleep because you think about it at night you wake up in the morning you think about this thing again like that's cool but really try to think what does the user need and try to validate. So it's and and I've been there like you dive into something and build something for half a year like you feel so passionate about it and then it's like you meet users and you show them your thing and they're like that doesn't make sense to me you know like what's going on in your brain man that's that's very interesting but this makes no sense. So try to validate stuff and be prepared that in 99% of all cases users will tell you that makes no sense. Like be prepared for it.

Like it's a harsh world, right? Um but try to validate early, right? Try to validate early before you invested half a half a year into something. I mean it's not so bad, right? In this half a year probably you learned a whole lot.

So that was a great half a year. Um but try to validate early. Uh talk to users again. come to hackathons because there's a lot of potential users around here. There's people like there's product people around here, there's ecosystem people around here.

Like come there and try to validate like talk to people and say, "Hey man, can you try this out?" Don't feel that you're too early. Don't feel that you cannot show your idea because it's still a little bit crappy. That's fine. Like in web 3, a lot of things are a little bit crappy.

So do validate and ask for honest and critical feedback.

And critical feedback is the most important one. Oh, awesome. Yeah, quite useful. Um, and going back to like privacy world in general. Um, yeah.

Um, maybe you could reflect on like your vision on like what's going on now in like in privacy let's say bubble or world

however you name it. Uh, but I feel that we are kind of expanding this bubble and becoming a world. It's slowly slowly but happening but like what's your vision on that like what do you see as a like main challenge for now in like in privacy world in general?

Yeah.

Um yeah so I would focus specifically in the web 3 privacy world.

I think we need to break out of the web 3 world just because web 3 is unfortunately not the world

and we can't wait for web 3 to get there. So think about who are users of our technology out of this like still relatively small community like who really wants to use your stuff. So from my perspective for example working on a VPN like a VPN is something that makes sense to a whole lot of people out there and they're paying money for it right let's try to bring those users into web 3 world they don't care about web 3 like we all are very passionate about it but they are not built for that mindset like what is the true values that they actually seek and give them that but give them that in a web 3 fashion so I see a lot of that I see a lot of opportunity there of bringing web three products and infrastructure to the real world and you know frankly also these crypto tokens that drive many of it they eventually need sustainable protocol revenue so to me that's all about that that's where we have to head right so this all has to get sustainable and um yeah that is where I think we're headed I'm quite optimistic on it because again like how many people really are kind of passionately ly trading and I mean globally it's not super many versus how many people use social apps. How many people are actually concerned about medical apps leaking data like I am personally extremely concerned about LLMs and you know AI tools that don't respect my privacy. I do think that for example AI tooling could massively improve global health at a level that we've never seen before.

That is only possible when we have strong anonymity and strong privacy for all of that. It's absolutely ridiculous to think that you upload your DNA data to Sam Alman and think that this will be fine. You will get absolutely screwed if that happens. And you know the technology that this ecosystem is building on enables that eventually and I hope that will happen. I think that will happen at a huge global scale and that will be a large success of this ecosystem but yeah it still needs a lot right there's still a lot of work ahead of us also on the infrastructure level to provide for that

100%. And uh and that's why we are also trying to merge these worlds like web three and web two and we work with both of course we are web three privacy so web three first but still we work with lawyers or we have like in academy we have a course on GDPR which is like both affecting web 3 and web two and we work with policy makers we give lectures in universities um publish books with thinkers so it's always interconnected and we kind of trying to play use web two as well. Uh yeah, but staying here is important. But I really like that you are very u let's say practical in terms of like users really don't care what's under the hood and they don't really care if it's web three or if it's like what's going on there. So for the majority it's something really absent.

That's very realistic optics I would say. So also you've mentioned AI which is a really hot topic now and like everyone is crazy around that. And it doesn't matter if you're like a noob user or like deep tech web 3 guru whatever. So uh AI is here everyone is using that that's obvious. But from privacy perspective, what do you think like how can you use it uh in a private way uh what maybe tools or maybe there is special approach on like how do you use it so that uh you are not transmitting something like sensible and not doxing yourself too much.

So what's this checklist on like how to use AI and still stay private and cool? very very tough question that I wish I had a perfect answer to and I don't and I hope that [laughter] can inspire a bunch of people to please build that because I want to use it.

Okay. No, but h let me first start with what is the issue. So using chat GBT because everybody does or a bunch of other agents

I see like the obvious problem is you are asking it again I stay with my example of medical just because I find it extremely personal and extremely problematic. Would you share your very intimate, very personal medical history with again Sam Elman's company? Um, I find that very problematic, right? So that's something we don't want to disclose personal data to them because they will disclose it to other parties. That's guaranteed and they will sell it if they can make money because that's what drives them.

Their value alignment is the US dollar. So for me the alignment with an AI company of today is extremely problematic. So we need to provide the ability to use AI tooling in an anonymous and private way without disclosing our information. But also even if we achieve that, you know, I could still probably link your individual queries that you send to an to an AI, right? So, for example, just to give a shout out to something that tries to go in that direction is Venice.

ai. So, Venice.ai is um AI that tries to be as private as you can really be today. I think it's not perfect. There's a lot more work that needs to get done.

And just to give you one example, Venice can pay with crypto and you know, they they proxy stuff before they send it actually to the inference. But still there, you have to kind of trust them. it's kind of trust me bro situation that uh they do not link your individual queries right and that I do find problematic so I want things that I don't just have to trust me bro and even though I think you know Eric Fores is one of probably the most aligned people in the space to to run such a company still I would want something that I can trust technology and not people so it's really all about don't trust verify but on a privacy side right So um yeah and there's a lot that is still needed and that we still need to build to provide private and anonymous access to um AI tooling. And the same also goes for coding, right? So if you're coding, is it really cool that you are disclosing everything to some agent that somebody else runs?

I'm concerned about this. like I am concerned about that somebody you know can can frontr run things that you're doing there. Um, yeah. I mean, at the same time, I don't want to be too much of a doomer because it is extremely powerful that as a non-trained developer, you can now build at least some degree of of tooling [snorts] you can build. It's great, right?

It it accelerates um, you know, humankind in in many ways and I do find it fantastic. But again, a little bit DAC, you know, defensive uh, thinking here. you know, think about what you disclose and think about how you can improve that. I have a feeling there's a lot of potential on the privacy tech side to, you know, build projects and products.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. Waiting for new uh private AI models which will be the same way powerful and I think we need that. Um but okay again um talking about tools um mention I'm like diving into this privacy world like on one level and I'm not that private I'm just a normal user and um what like three simple tools you would recommend to use if I'm not like still private but I want to like uh what should I start with?

Yeah, great great question. So, let's say you really haven't so much thought about privacy and you want to, you know, you want to level up a bit. Uh, let me start with the first one is what chat app do you use? Especially if you're in crypto, maybe you're on Telegram. That's a really bad idea.

Like, please get off Telegram. I would say get on Signal. You know, Signal has encryption in there. Signal is sufficiently useful, I would say, for group chats also with other people. Please consider switching.

I know you can't switch everyone but try switching the sensitive conversations from telegram to signal. That's the first step. And the second step would be how do you secure your secrets meaning passwords also you know please start using a password manager that's not just privacy related but security and privacy in many ways interact. Um, so any password manager is good for you. Uh, if you are kind of leveling up to the next level, you might think, is it really cool that my passwords are stored on a cloud?

And now for the ones who want to go to the next level, I would shout out to a free and open-source project called KeyPass. There's keypass on desktop and keypass on like for example Android or iOS. So keypass xc and keypass dx are the two versions that I can recommend. That is that is two important ones. And the third one uh the third tool that I would recommend is like what are you using for web browsing?

Uh for web browsing well you have you know browsers that disclose all sorts of information and there's some browsers that are more privacy respecting. So I would shout out to Brave. So Brave is a browser that tries to be much more privacy respecting [snorts] and again also on that level if you want to level up um the next level after that would be use a VPN right so use a VPN and currently please don't go for NordVPN or ExpressVPN I don't have any proof for it but I think that's a that's a honeypot like it does not make sense to me like there's some company that you trust with all your connection metadata they know what apps you're using from where you know at what time intervals that's wild so and and again maybe a preview to what what we are building we're trying to fix that with NosisVPN that's not live yet but I hope in the next 12 months we get to a point where people can actually use NosVPN to solve exactly that not just trust one server provider but again for now people who want to use a VPN I would shout out to Mulvat uh or ProtonVPN that's the two that I would recommend for people who are serious about privacy. They're not expensive. Um, you can get decent features uh for around $10 a month.

H great. Good luck with launching soon. Hope you'll see it in developments. Uh, but then a quick question here. Uh, how do you know that VPN is good or not good without being deeply tech person as well?

Because you've said you you've said something about like NVPN which is quite popular, right? And they have I think a lot of users. So um it's not about what's good, what's bad, but like how do you approach this process like how do I understand what's good, what's bad.

Yeah.

Yeah. Really tricky one because again uh many technologies they're built on the web too like many VPNs today centralized VPNs they have kind of this trust me bro um you know attitude. Uh but that being said uh there are some VPNs which require less information of you and you know for example Malvat or ProtonVPN uh like just just to give some examples for how anonymous you can use them. from all that. For example, you could put cash in like physical cash in an envelope, write a number on a sheet of paper next to the envelope and send it to them, right?

So that is unlin that is unlin from the entire digital world. Like it doesn't get much more anonymous than that. Still, it's not great because you have trust that the servers don't log and track you. Um there's people who combine multiple VPNs behind one another which gets a little bit more again sophisticated but yeah using providers which give you that option or ping in some you know privacy coins. Yeah these are ideas that you can look for if you want proper anonymity in a VPN and again don't go for the major providers like ExpressVPN or nVPN because I'm convinced they are honey traps.

Okay. M and thinking about this beautiful world of future imagine we are like 30 years from now we are getting big you are launching your VPN web three privacy now is getting web two global [laughter] whatever uh so the internet of future um private secure whatever uh how does it look like and how life is different from what we have now

in this heaven privacy privacy

30 years [laughter]

that's a great question. I like that a lot. 30 years into the future, if you know what we all are working on in this ecosystem was successful. I imagine a world where the individual is much more empowered. Where the default concept of creating value for mankind right now is you start a company, company grows, company makes money, you build a product, company makes more money, shareholders make more money.

And that's the default way how humans create value on this planet. That has to change and that in 30 years will have changed. We will empower both builders and users of technology to the degree that they do not require large multinational corporations or nation states with their most basic needs. infrastructure is run by individuals which get together, provide resources and earn an income for that. I hope that we have a form of basic income established which provides for the livelihood and a planet that is much more you know globally um like less unequal than it is today.

um and therefore also provide a much more peaceful of living together of humans on this planet and beyond. Um I do hope that we have technologies which are privacy respecting don't allow for data harvesting and are still very versatile. It's not something that gets taken away from the individual but enables you to do more. I hope that we have less kind of huge companies or huge projects like I don't care if you know Bitcoin is still alive then to some degree. I hope it's actually not because society would be much less or much more unequal than with other fiat currencies.

So yeah, I do hope that we have an economy and a global world which is enables much more people to do stuff that we have, you know, people talk tech talk about microservices. I hope that we have kind of micro products and technologies that can interact with one another to create value and make life better. I hope that as I said, you know, that enables us to um increase public health. There's a lot of talk about longevity and extending lifespan of humanity. I hope that does not just get built on the backs of you know a few large corporations but by having open innovation open science to improve life on planet earth and beyond.

And this open exchange is largely driven by technology because stuff doesn't get done by itself. I'm not an AI doomer. So I don't think that AI will take over mankind. But I think that we will harness AI to safely build better technologies and that we keep doing that and keep anchoring that in the values that we establish today. That's why I think that's important to do.

Wonderful picture. [laughter] I'm like, whoa. Yeah, I went there. Yeah. But I hope our mutual effort will bring them there.

um sooner or later. Uh last question, uh what would you recommend like a piece of like a cultural piece for like people from the students of the academy? Maybe book, maybe podcast, maybe film, maybe playlist, whatever, some cultural artifact, not necessarily about privacy, but something to like enrich the world and like you get some different perspective.

Yeah. Um, I would recommend um Isac Azimov Foundation series. The Foundation Trilogy is a classic sci-fi that goes into makes you think about stuff in a large time scale and large perspectives. We insignificant little species on an insignificant little planet and you know things that we do today impact the world of tomorrow. And I think Foundation Series is a sci-fi that, you know, depicts that kind of nicely.

Um, yeah. So, that's something that I would I would recommend.

It's maybe not so much web 3, but it's way older, right? It's older than most of us, but yeah, it's it's a great one.

Yeah, it's a great advice because like you don't have to be necessarily like all web three hardcore and like if it gives you perspective, it gives you perspective, right? Yeah.

So, yeah, just thank you for being with us. It was a wonderful interview.

Thanks for having me and thanks for supporting privacy and the web 3 privacy ecosystem. We're all grateful for having you.

Yep. Thank you.

Ciao.