Debunking Myths about Building out of SEA

All right, good afternoon, everybody. Can I get a show of hands how many people here are not from Southeast Asia? All right, and the rest of you are all locals. Thanks for the support. So we have Tian, Matthew, and Lloyd.

Before we start talking about building out of Southeast Asia, I think it's important for people to understand your stories for this space. So if you mind giving a quick introduction about how you got into this space and, more importantly, where you were in your life, like geographically, career-wise. Where were you in that phase of life? So we can start with Tian. Yeah, hi, I'm Tian, CEO and co-founder of Tandle.

I got started in crypto as a hobbyist back in 2014 when I was doing research for a professor on fintech. At that point in time, I think fintech was still very heavily tied to – sorry, the entire crypto sector was very heavily tied to fintech. And just looking through various business models and ideas, and I thought Bitcoin was very interesting. I was involved in the space as volunteers in a couple of projects, but I became professionally involved in crypto more seriously when I joined Kyber in 2017. So yeah, Lloyd here, former boss.

But it was a fantastic opportunity because it opened a lot of doors. I got to see the evolution of DeFi, crypto as a whole at the front row seat. And I would attribute everything that I know about crypto today to the experience. It all started from the Kyber days. Yeah, I've always been in Southeast Asia, travel a lot, but primarily been based out of Southeast Asia my entire life.

And maybe I'll skip Matt just because Tian mentioned Lloyd. How was your introduction to the space, and then how did you introduce Tian as well? I was a PhD student at the National University of Singapore. Very early in my PhD career, I was given the opportunity to explore whatever that I want to do with my life. So that was the best part about NUS.

So I stumbled on a couple of articles about Bitcoin, and I was like, okay, this sounds interesting. I decided to basically dive a little bit further into it. And I think a few months after that, the white people of Ethereum was introduced, and everyone was talking about Ethereum everywhere. And basically it opens a lot more opportunities for people to do stuff on top of Ethereum. Because I think back then, I think Bitcoin was at the stage in which anything that you want to do is going to cost a lot of discussion, and it's going to take years in order to do anything.

And when Ethereum was introduced, it's like a fresh new energy into the cryptocurrency space. So basically my whole PhD thesis was all about scaling public blockchain like Ethereum, making smart contracts smarter, more secure. So I actually wrote one of the first open-source smart contract security scanner. It was around the time of the DAO hack in 2015. I got the opportunity to talk and meet a lot of Ethereum researchers in the early days, including Vitalik and a few other people.

I think 2016, 2017, because there were only a few meetups in Singapore back then about crypto and blockchain, and that's how I got to know a lot of other people like Tian and a few other OG people in the space. 2017, when I was about to get out of my PhD, I decided to work on Kyber. And yeah, that was how it started. And Matt? I see a lot of friendly faces.

So for those who don't know, unlike both Tian and Lloyd, I had already been in the tech space for close to 15 years plus in the software industry. And being there for 15 years previously was a long time. I guess I was getting restless, and like both of them here, I think I heard of Bitcoin in 2011. And being Asian, Malaysian, this was like a money printing machine, right? So you could turn on your PC and you earn $2 and $3 back then.

So that got me really intrigued, and it felt like the Internet back in 1995 when I was still in uni. So yeah, I just started going a little bit deeper into it and built some stuff on Bitcoin. And obviously when Ethereum came along, it was very intriguing. You could build this programmable smart contract on the blockchain. And since then, I think we've been really focused on building out the data infrastructure, making that data available for the public, and hopefully allowing users to use that data to make informed decisions.

So you know how Tian met Lloyd. How did Matt meet the other two? Okay. So I think with Lloyd, I didn't really meet him. It was more like online, right?

Yeah. I'm sorry? I think it was during the ICO craze that Matt wanted some allocation. Yeah, yeah. He was like, hey, can you give me some allocation?

I was like, okay, it was kind of good. Yeah, good. So now that he mentioned it, it was in 2018, 2017. So I saw Lloyd, this young PhD student from NUS, and I had this brilliant idea. So in 2017, it was just much more easier.

I think I pinged him online and said, hey, Lloyd, let's chat. So that chat led to one thing and another, and I think we've been able to build a very long friendship and relationship since then. We've helped each other in different parts of our journey when times were tough. So I do appreciate that friendship with Lloyd and partnership. And that's kind of when I met Tian, right?

So I noticed Tian was still young, but younger back then. A very aggressive, witty guy growing up and stuff like that. And I think we also kind of invested in some of the early projects that Tian did. So it's quite an interrelated relationship. And I think we didn't really cover that much, but Lloyd, how did you find Tian?

How did you hire him to join the Kyber team? I think it was a very natural kind of decision. Back then, I knew that I could start something, but I didn't really finalize what it was and stuff. And I was a PhD researcher, technical person. I obviously needed some help, right?

So I met Tian via some introduction or some meetup. It's like Singapore back then. I think there were probably like 20, 30 people that are interested in crypto. And you keep seeing the same people in the meetups, right? So I think we are at the same age and we'll probably get along well with each other.

So I just invited him to join the team. It was great to have him to support us. This might be a biased question because I helped organize the meetup. But you guys have mentioned meetups a couple of times. How much have meetups or local communities helped you guys to form a team or to help build your team?

Maybe Tian? I think in the early days, it definitely helped. I'm a strong believer in having that human touch, like just meet in person. Because you can tell a lot more about an individual when you are physically present in the same venue, right? Versus online or like digital connections.

I would say back in the days, the difference between the meetups back then and now is that I feel that back then, the attitude towards like Ethereum and the entire sector as a whole was more innocuous. Like everyone's in, like most people were in because they wanted to learn about the tech. Now it's different. I think the attitude is, what's the next meme coin, right? Can't help with that.

That's the reality. But I think back in the days, to get to know people, you go to meetups, you come across people with similar interests a lot more easily. These days, it's harder to tell. So we probably have to resort to other avenues to streamline or filter out how to identify individuals who have similar interests. But I guess it's just a function of time and also the growth of the sector.

Any thoughts from Matt and Lloyd? Utilizing communities, local communities and meetups to help you form a team or build your team. I think we actually hire several good people from local meetups. Basically, it's a lot better. It's a good recruitment channel for us.

You meet people there. You see how they interact. You ask them the question. Basically, usually when you meet people, you don't tell them, hey, we're looking for this position. But you see how they do, how they interact with other people, what their characteristics are.

And after that, you're like, okay, this might be a good fit for the team. And you want to bring them on board and see how they... I think it's a lot better than just proactively coaching people. Yeah, so we support EKL, right? I probably wouldn't be on the stage here if it wasn't because of EKL.

That's why I kind of met Harit, right? Yeah, I think the key for the successful meetups that we've seen, like the local grassroots meetups, it definitely helps if there is an industry sponsor or supporter. So I think that's what we kind of try to do, but at the same time, trying to keep it as non-profit as possible. So I think that's the key point. And just providing a space where if people are coming back or even people traveling through the region want to stop by and they just want to share.

So I think having that meetup basically allows you to create a readily available community that is able to share that part. I think one thing that I want to add more is that I think in Southeast Asia, probably most people, most engineers, they're very shy online. Like you go to Twitter, you probably don't see a lot of Southeast Asian engineers talking about a lot of stuff. Because one, I think English is probably not their first native language, and two, usually they don't argue online that much. Oh yeah, they don't argue.

So I think the best way to know them is to go to conferences or local meetups in which there is some particular topic that is of their interest, and you can pick a lot of things from their brain. I think they share a lot more. And Matt, you mentioned you were 15 years as a Web2 founder in Malaysia. I think that's a very unique take that you can give. What's the difference like between being a founder in Web2 versus Web3, and specifically as someone who was in Malaysia, in Southeast Asia?

So 15 years in Web2, but 10 years in Web3. So 10 years in Web3, right, is a long time. So one of the things I actually realized is, I have to really think hard because it's been a while, and you kind of get used to the way things are done in Web3. But I think something that kind of reminded me about this was, so we were at a dinner and we had a conversation with this person who was from Web2, and I think she actually shared one point. So she shared that she's moving from Web2 into Web3, and she said that one of the things that she found most stuck was that the people in Web3 generally, especially with Ethereum, tend to be really friendly.

They share a lot of information. In Web2, if you go around and ask a lot of stuff, people kind of get a little bit hesitant, a little bit cautious. But if you see the ethos in Web3, if you go around and ask questions, a lot of folks are just extremely happy to share with you, to share with you what they're doing and the tech side of it all. So I think for that matter, I appreciate and I'm thankful for being able to be part of that Web3 ethos. And you kind of have to be reminded of that sometimes.

So I think that was helpful for me. And for Tien and Lloyd as well, so you both mentioned that you were researchers, and you did a bunch of work in the space before you became founders. So to anyone in the audience or who's watching online, is that experience, how helpful or necessary is that experience to have before you start and found your own team? Tien? Just a disclaimer.

My research is nothing like Lloyd's. It's still research. Serious research. I'm a hobbyist. Well, I think my perspective is probably different from Lloyd.

I think it helps to actually, like, starting out a company is difficult. And in order to, I think one key difference between a more successful company from everything else is having a unique perspective about a sector that you're operating in. Like, for example, right, a lot of people can be running money markets. Very simple, straightforward product with a clear product market fit. But then there will be differences between a product like Aave and Compound and everyone else.

And, of course, like now, gradually we're seeing products like Euler and Morpho gaining traction. These founders have very deep understanding about money markets, and they also are able to incorporate their unique perspective into their product. That can only come when you're deep in the sector. So, like, put it simply, right, if I have not been involved in the space since my Kyber days, I don't think I would be able to pull out something like Pendle. That knowledge can come from research.

It can come from direct involvement in a team that is operating in a certain segment of interest. It can come from anywhere. But really, I think the more important component here is really deep understanding of the sector and then developing a unique perspective that can help develop a more interesting product, a more differentiated one. And, Loi, Yan mentioned you have a very different perspective. I think, in general, over time, I think over the last, like, 10 years, I realized that I think Web3 is, in general, like, crypto is the most rewarding industry for any academic researcher, right?

So it's rewarding not just because of, like, the potential financial return. I mean, a lot of, like, good high-profile projects run by academic founders, right? But also, like, you know, seeing, being able to see, like, you know, what you research on to be deployed, to be used by everyone over the world, right? I think that's the most rewarding experience. So before I started Kyber, I had a few opportunities, right, to work on still blockchain research, but, like, in, like, say, industry, big companies, big payment companies.

Pay you more. Sorry, what? That they pay you more. I mean, it's not—I mean, they paid okay. I mean, it was bizarre research, right?

They started, like, their blockchain research back in 2017, but it was like, you know, if I work here, it's going to take me years, right, in order to see any of my research, like, getting deployed or getting used in practice, and it's going to be, like, patent after patent after patent, right? So that's the business model, right? So—and then I keep seeing, like, you know, other people launching new protocols, new products, right, and, like, I was like, I could do that as well, right? You know, it was a big inspiration. So eventually I decided, like, to work on my own startup, launch Kyber, and get, like, people to use it, and over time I also encouraged a lot of people, like, to, hey, if you want to do something, you know, just launch your own startup, right?

Like, do it in crypto. Like, forget about fintech. Forget about, like, you know, other stuff. I think crypto—with crypto, you launch for a global audience. You get, like, abundant of, like, funding and support, and, like, you know, users, right, from everywhere.

It's the fastest, like, you know, journey for you to see something from happening. And on that note, Southeast Asia isn't very well-known for having huge, like, globally impacting tech companies, but we have three here, and just curious, like, do you know, like, is there some sort of secret sauce that you guys have had that you were able to create these global companies out of Southeast Asia when a lot of people in a lot of other industries were unable to do that? Matt, maybe? So, I guess it depends on your personality and the individual itself. For me specifically, generally, I think if you look at—for the same fact that you mentioned, right, so if you look at Southeast Asia in general, right, perhaps with the exception of Singapore, generally, we are often under looked—no, it's like you're in Southeast Asia, it's not in the Silicon Valley and stuff like that.

So, at least back then, maybe that's my chip on the shoulder. So that kind of motivated me to prove that we could do something out here. So that was one strong driving push over the last 10 years to show that we could build global products out of Southeast Asia. The second point, I guess, for us was obviously to choose to work on something that we're passionate about and something that we had—and I shared this before—that we had a more level playing field. A level playing field meaning that—so, like, with a lot of traditional Web 2.

0 apps, right, a lot of this hinges on the relationships that you had, the geographical location that you're based on. Like, if that is very fintech and stuff, being in places like New York and stuff has a lot of advantages. There is a lot of fun-facing consumer apps. Obviously, being in Silicon Valley helps a lot. So, like, if we had done something along those lines, it wouldn't be on a fair footing.

But with Web 3.0, it's a much more fairer footing. It's access to data, it's decentralized. Anyone can go out, you can grab it, you can do whatever you want with it. And you can't control the data flow, so everyone can compete on a slightly more fairer basis.

So I think for us, that was the two key points. Okay. I mean, no secret sauce. But I think—so, Pendle, like, my product is the youngest of the lot. And I think I've had the fortune of looking at these two other guys building brands and having an influence in the space.

And to me, that's inspiring. Because, like what Matt said, right, I think crypto as a whole is extremely accessible. And the playing field is a lot more leveled compared to the other sectors. So, when I was thinking about, like, building a product, I look at Matt, I look at Loy, and I thought that if they're able, within Southeast Asia, build something that can reach a global audience and attain global success, I can do it as well. So, I look up to these guys.

And I think it helps to also dream big. Just because we're from Southeast Asia, it doesn't mean we're worse off. I actually think there's an abundance of talents here. A lot of us, maybe because of different exposure, we tend to think that it's better out there. But I can say, talents-wise, I mean, there's plenty, right?

Like, in Malaysia and Vietnam, Singapore is a small population but highly concentrated. But, like, in Indonesia, even in Thailand, because of the population and just by the sheer effect of power of law, you have like 600 million people, 700 million people here. You can definitely find, like, the top 1-2% to be exceptionally talented, right? So, just need to reach out to these people, build something great. And, you know, given the fact that, like, crypto is extremely democratizing, I think we can build something great.

I think cost plays an important role here, right? Like, for a startup, I mean, I'm not sure about others, but I think from my experience, I think we probably have to try different ideas before we find the one that actually works, right? And throughout that journey, it's going to take, like, one or two years at least, right? And, like, you need to sustain the team, right, for that one or two years. And I think in South Asia, it's a lot more cost-effective to do that, right?

Like, I mean, you can survive in, like, Bangkok and probably Hanoi and KL with, like, $500, $600 per month. I'm not sure about KL. I haven't lived there. But, yeah, I mean, I think you have that ability. You have that, like, you know, I would say, yeah, advantage compared to, like, other higher-developed markets.

And you get to go through, like, different, like, cycle of products, different ideas, you know, check them out and see whether launch it, see whether it works. If it works, great, like, let's scale it. Let's play fun, right? If it doesn't, you know, let's just move on to a new one. And also, like, one more thing is, like Tian mentioned, the amount of talent, the amount of engineers here is abundant, right?

Like, you know, if you want to scale people, probably next month you can get, like, 10, 20, 30 more easily. Yeah, so... And same with Loi. So if there are any people who are not from Southeast Asia and who want to hire devs or other talent from out of Southeast Asia, they might have heard, you know, it's cheap, maybe some would speak good English, they're very hungry. In your experience working with talent out of Southeast Asia, what would you say to these other builders who might be interested to hire people from here?

Working with... I think you just try to get people from Pando. It's a scan archiver. That's the best way to... Just kidding.

So, I mean, that's what happened to a lot of our former team members, right? They got pushed by other teams from elsewhere. Basically, like, say, if the team is from the U.S. and they're looking for some people in Asia, some engineers in Asia, usually they would look for, like, you know, all the people that are working for existing teams in Asia, right?

And they're like, hey, we're going to pay you double. And it's still half the price that we're paying in the U.S. And we lost a lot of people to them. But it's okay because, like, you know, it's a fair market, right?

If they can get a better opportunity, happy for them. And we'll get to work on the new engineers. But anyway, don't do that. I think, in general, language is the big barrier. But I feel like it's getting improved a lot lately.

All the young engineers, because they get to work on, like, you know, English in their training, in their college. So, communication in English, in writing, is okay. Speaking might need some time for them. But I think probably in Malaysia, it's probably not an issue. But, like, in other countries like Thailand and...

Vietnam and even Indonesia is probably a big barrier. Other than that, I think everyone is hardworking, fast learner, young population. You have a lot of talent to recruit. Yeah, so... First of all, I don't think five, six hundred is enough to survive in KL.

Second, tapping off on what Lloyd has mentioned, for that same reason, again, generally in Southeast Asia, these are developing nations, so there's a high growth. And normally, people here are quite hungry, so they want to improve their lives. I'm not saying people outside here aren't, but generally in Southeast Asia, there's a very strong drive, there's a strong drive, also a monetary incentive in order to improve the quality of your life, so people really strive for it. I think they really work hard and they don't take things too relaxed. A lot of people are just like, no, you've got to make it.

So you push hard, you study hard. It's very traditional in Asia, study hard and work hard and you do get a good job and stuff like that. And that's fairly what we see at least in developing nations, like in Malaysia and Vietnam and Thailand and all the other countries, with the exception of Singapore, which is obviously already very much more global. So other than that, going back to what Lloyd mentioned, I know working with teammates, obviously money is important, but I think there are also other values there, other things that you can accomplish working in a team. So yes, money plays a large factor.

I don't think it's the only factor. Sometimes it's also about a journey and the ability to grow and probably thinking a little bit more forward, like what happens after five years and stuff like that. And there's probably a bunch of other reasons that you can do it in a separate conversation. No, nothing meaningful to add. I think they cover it all.

I think the stereotypes are generally quite accurate. Okay, then I'm not going to let you go. But the talent within Southeast Asia is extremely diverse. Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia, Philippines, all very different people. And I'm quite sure that three of you hire people from across the region.

So what are your learnings from handling these very diverse cultures within the same team? Tian, I'm going to start with you. I'm going to skip the last one. Can I defer to Matt? Okay, Matt first.

Let me go ahead and take a stab at that because we're actually quite diverse culturally. So again, Malaysia is in the middle of everything, like the three main different groups and races, right? I actually think diversity is a trend. I know it's always been said, it sounds cliché, but I think it is. Especially when it comes to, again, I guess what we're building, right?

So for us, some of the stuff we're building is a bit more front-facing. So I think having perspective from different folks, from different backgrounds and different perceptions, I think helps, right? So I know if you're building something and someone says, this colour looks good, and someone else says, this colour looks not so good. So I think you found a lot of it has some sort of cultural elements for what it is. And somehow or other, we're able to jive on a colour that's a little bit more neutral.

So that kind of works for us. Having said that, other than that, nothing critical. I know very minor stuff, probably like in, so let's say like this trip, meeting here with the team, right? So I guess, you know what's actually our biggest challenge or not? So our biggest challenge is actually figuring out where to go eat.

The reason being, coming from different diverse backgrounds, like food requirements, for example. Maybe it has to be kosher or halal, or maybe it has to be no alcohol and stuff like that. So I guess it's very trivial stuff. And somehow or other, we actually manage, and we really find balance. And there are sessions where it's with alcohol, and there are sessions without alcohol, and vice versa.

And somehow it works, and I think a lot of folks, it's a very unique perspective. One that I've grown up with, and I treasure a lot. Yeah, you mentioned to me earlier, diversity by default. So I think that's a good catchphrase. It is what it is.

Jian, are you ready? I really don't see major challenges. I think managing diversity is part and parcel of running a team. This happens regardless of where you're at. Of course, Southeast Asia is relatively diverse, but there's also a lot of similarities in the way we perceive things.

I think by and large, Southeast Asians are generally motivated. And having that shared trait is helpful in trying to align team members. Everybody wants to win. So you just have to do a bit of reminder, and I think everyone can fall in line quite quickly. I would say, if you want to...

I mean, I think probably the best way to do that is to probably have a trusted leader or manager in every country. And you just deal with that person, and rely on that person to manage the team in that particular country. I think we did that because back then, Kyber had people in Vietnam, Singapore, and Israel, and a couple of other countries. Because I think there are a lot of things that you don't know about the culture, about how people want, and what people want. And I think having someone that you can rely on, and to handle all of that issues for you, and make sure that everyone works well together, I think is great.

And this question I've had from a lot of people, actually. Not sure by coincidence or by design, but somehow... So Kyber and Pendle are very, very strong companies in DeFi. And Etherscan and CoinGecko, for example, are very, very strong in data services. Is there a reason why Southeast Asia is bursting these campaigns in these two specific spaces within the industry?

Does anyone here have an answer? I'll speak on behalf of Malaysia. I think a lot of us don't want to end up in jail last time. So we closed the data. It's just much more clearer.

Right now, it's not too bad. The regulatory landscape has a lot more clarity. And it's just, you go early into the space, and normally, typical Malaysians, we have families and stuff like that. So we just want to navigate in an area that's considered relatively straightforward. Because there's just different licenses, and AML, KYC, and stuff you need to go into.

So given that it wasn't clear for us specifically, so we chose that path. So which is why you have CoinGecko and Etherscan doing quite similar products with data that doesn't really touch the transaction flow like both of these guys are doing. I think for me, it's a little different. I somehow found my way to Singapore. And Singapore being a financial hub in the region, and also, I think, one of the more important financial hubs globally, we have a lot of exposure to financial products and instruments.

And that has, of course, shaped how I think about finance. And it so happened that DeFi is one of the major narratives within crypto in the early days, and it continues to be the major driver of adoption. So it helps, I think, from a product operator standpoint, just being physically in Singapore, the access to capital, the knowledge in financial infrastructure, definitely helps how we think about product construct. Now, I am Malaysian by nationality. And as to how some of these DeFi products can be traced to Malaysian founders, I'm not sure.

I think I can add a little bit. I think it's probably a little bit broader. I think the reason why we see a lot of DeFi and data-oriented products coming out of Southeast Asia is because Southeast Asian founders are bad at selling. So we have to build something that the product will sell for itself. So like DeFi, product market fit instantly from day one.

Data product is the same. Everyone uses Etherscan these days because it's just the right product that people want. We are bad at selling a new narrative. It's really hard for Southeast Asians to do that. I mean, it's not just because English is not our native language.

It's also because we don't have big funds like AT&T or Pardam to stamp a $100 million check on us and say, this is the new narrative. In Southeast Asia, we don't have that big of a fund. So we have to pick something that I think is product market fit and generate revenue, can get users from day one. And we can just scale from there. All right, so we have a little bit of time left.

This panel is called Debunking Myths Building out of C. So I want to check with you guys very quickly, answer each one of you, whether each item is a truth or a myth. So first item, funding. How, whether it's very difficult to get funding out of the country that you are based out of. Kai-Fu just mentioned the country and truth or myth.

Vietnam, I think it's a bit hard. Singapore, a lot easier. Malaysia is a little bit more challenging. Singapore is easier. Okay, infrastructure.

Whether it's the internet, having highways, having a strong startup ecosystem. Is it lacking or is it actually thriving? Loi, we'll just go in cycles. Internet, I think it's good. I think internet in Southeast Asia is actually extremely good compared to many other parts of the world.

Startup ecosystem, I think it's still growing. It's not there yet, but it's growing. And in the city, like highways, buildings? I think it's okay. Yeah, so Malaysia, no issues.

Very strong infrastructure, good buildings. Relatively, in comparison, good roads. And in terms of the internet connectivity, it's decent, very decent. I guess it really varies from city to city, right? If you look at Singapore, it's definitely pretty top-notch in public infrastructure.

Transportation, internet, everything is good. KL is also pretty high up there. But when it comes to Jakarta, for example, it's extremely renowned for massive traffic jam. Internet connectivity, I guess it's good. But a lot of time, if you were to do a business in Jakarta, a lot of time will be wasted in trying to get from one spot to the other.

So I think in Southeast Asia, it depends on where you go. Myth. I think Singapore, yes. In terms of published reports, the cost is actually very high. But the good thing about Singapore is that there's always a range.

So if you want to, like, take transportation for example. Established public transport is actually extremely affordable. But if you want to own a car, it's going to cost a lot of money. In the same way, when it comes to food and daily necessity, you have an extremely affordable option with like $2, $3 US dollars a day. Sorry, a meal.

You can find something very... Yeah, it can fill your tummy. But of course, if you want fine dining, a three-star restaurant will cost you $1,000, something like that, right? Yeah, so that's how I think about Singapore. Lorin, since you spent some time there.

If you just live there alone, it's very okay. It's affordable, right? But if you need to, say, build a family or build a team there, it's going to be very costly. Very costly. Yeah, but I think back to the previous question, I think Singapore is probably the most developed start-up in terms of ecosystem, right?

You have funds, you have quality founders. You have people visiting the country every now and then. So I think it's a vibrant crypto start-up in South Asia. I think other countries probably don't have that luxury, that intersection of people from all over the world try to stay there for a few months, learn the ecosystem, try to expand to South Asia or Asia in general, and they would want to set up base in Singapore. Yeah.

All right, and a couple of questions before we open it up for the audience. For people who are not from Southeast Asia, who are considering to move here to build a team or to join a team, any quick advice each one of you can give them? Go to Malaysia. What? Go to Malaysia.

Why? It's a reliable infrastructure, causes a fraction of that of Singapore, and you get good access to many, many parts of the world. Maybe I add it. So the team is in Malaysia. The founders are in Singapore.

That's what we're seeing right now. Raise the capital in Singapore and do the work in KL. I would say you need to pick a base, right? I think there are several good bases in Southeast Asia. KL, Bangkok, and Hanoi, Ho Chi Minh.

Singapore as well. But of course, if you're in Singapore, you have to know what you want to achieve from there, right? Because the cost is high. But if you want to build a team, engineering team, KL is really very good. I think even Vietnam, actually.

Ho Chi Minh is very active. Hanoi, you can get great engineers there. Great engineers there. I also want to add, so the reason why I thought about Malaysia, is because I think the English, the general English proficiency in Malaysia is quite good. It was an English colony.

So English can get you quite far. But you can add engineering talent, Hanoi, Vietnam, Saigon. Does it make sense? No contest. All right.

Thanks for the advantage. That's all my questions. And we can open it up for audience to ask their questions. Thank you so much. Can we give a big round of applause to the panel?

That was awesome. Okay, so we're into Q&A. If you don't know how to do or participate, you just need to take a snap of that QR code. You scroll to the bottom of the page, and there's a link saying live Q&A. And yeah, just click the Q&A button, and you'll be able to put up some questions.

So let's get straight into some of the questions that are on the screen here. The first one is, do you see that there is a bigger wave of adoption of crypto in APAC now? Any one of the panelists can answer, or several. I could say there are a lot more young people trading crypto than trading stocks these days in South Asia. Because I think it's easy to understand for them.

It's very easy to set it up and just, you know. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I agree with the point. Singapore, Vietnam, probably Vietnam especially, right? The number of active users on, say, like, crypto exchanges is up only.

And I think it's because, yeah, it's just a lot more accessible. And all these exchanges are putting strong efforts in trying to grow their presence in markets in several countries in Southeast Asia. And I think regulation is getting better in a lot of the countries. Like, I just met someone from SCB, the biggest bank here, I think. They launched an app for you to convert your direct receipts to Thai Baht and you can just spend immediately at the merchants.

It's crazy. In Singapore, there are a lot of, like, crypto payment companies now as well. Like, you can just pay from, like, cash out your crypto into debit card and you can just pay from the debit card. I mean, it's getting to the point that I don't even need to use my bank for most of the transactions these days. All right, great.

Thank you. Let's move on to the next question. Are you guys hiring? Oh yeah, so the next question. Are you guys hiring?

Wait, I thought it was the other one. Well, apparently this one is very popular. Let me jump to the other one. Well, we can just get yes or no, and then we can move on. Yeah, obviously we're hiring.

Yeah. Okay, you guys aren't hiring? I'm sure you're looking for good talent. I recently started a car labor venture builder as well. So if you are looking to do your own startup, talk to me.

I only do, like, two every year, so, you know. You're hiring two people now? We are looking actively for new founders, yeah. Yeah, okay. So for us, like, in short, yes, we are always on the lookout for talent.

Positions vary. Thank you. All right. Okay, so earlier part of the conversation, I think New York was mentioned as a city that has, like, high kind of FaceTime networking. Maybe networking opportunities have been best in Southeast Asia.

And also someone in the panel mentioned that Southeast Asians don't like arguing online as much. So the question is, what are some tips that you have for people here, based in Southeast Asia, to better tap into, like, the global or online networking for Web3? So we don't like arguing. I would say it's actually changing. So I've seen...

I don't know, maybe it's... Well, actually, I guess, like, for us, that's one of the challenges, like, I see going out there and creating that awareness and arguing online. Somehow it just goes against that whole ethos. But having said that, I think we've seen some of the new projects. So I think...

So we actually had this conversation just recently, and so this project, I think, Megha Eats, this founder, I think she has a very strong presence and is able to capture such. Yet, that perception is changing. A lot of the projects coming out are able to do a good job there, and hopefully we can learn a little bit on how they've done. So I guess it's, like, about gaining more visibility online. Any other sort of networking tips?

Maybe I can chip in as well. So what we found with the local community in KL is for the young people especially, just join hackathons. There are a bunch of online hackathons, and the price pool can be quite big. So there's a cohort of builders who just join these hackathons and use the winnings to go fund themselves to go to the next hackathon. And from there, you're introducing to people based on what you've built and not based on what you're talking about.

I guess another way is to also join all the big projects, big companies in the region. And from time to time, we need to send people to events, conferences, to learn what others are building. So that's also a good opportunity for you to network and to basically learn from the best. Okay, great. I think that segues nicely to the next question, which is, what are the best communities, in your opinion, to connect with other founders in each of your cities?

Yeah, East KL, 4KL, East KL. Damn, I got to show you, right? East KL, yes, 4KL. And then CryptoSG for like, yeah, basically, I think anyone who's building something independent of sectors or ecosystem would have some form of connection with Nick and his team. Wearing the ARK shirt, it's a crypto community in South Asia.

I remember ARK as well. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. It's actually quite interesting, quite vibrant. They talk crypto all the time, even like playing soccer. Some guy's trading meme coin on the bench.

So it's like, you know, it's crazy. Even in Malaysia, the 5G community is quite strong. Great, thank you. Got a couple more questions here. How is someone not to be overlooked as a deeply technical person moving to Southeast Asia from America?

What should they do? So go online versus meetups or practical tech versus networking people? So someone's moving from America to Southeast Asia, how can they stand out and not be overlooked? Be like Ross. No, just kidding.

Technical person. He was security, right? I think, yeah, meetups, definitely. When we first started out, like even in Silicon Valley in 2015, 2016, the way we connected with the community back then was through meetups. I think the same still holds true here.

Go for meetups. It's free, it's informal. Anything else to add? Yeah, I mean, just try to participate, right? Try to give talks, try to, you know, be part of some team.

And I think, like, in general, we are very happy to meet new people. If you're in town, just, you know, bring us and ask for a meeting or office tour or something. Happy to meet new people all the time. Yeah. Great.

So let's talk about the bull market. What are you guys excited to see in the cycle of the bull market? And if you'd like to add anything, like, on the Southeast Asian point of view, like, what do you think, how do you think it may impact Southeast Asia? So generally, as well as, like, focus on Southeast Asia. I guess, like, yeah, with bull market, we can expect more new joiners and with more new joiners, I think it's also reasonable to expect newer and creative use cases that might be native to Southeast Asia.

After all, I think from media consumption perspective, people in Southeast Asia consume media very differently from many, many nationalities in other parts of the world. So I would imagine that people who are native to Southeast Asia would take opportunities perhaps a bit differently from individuals in other nationalities, in other countries. Maybe things that are, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if there are things that are native to, say, like, Vietnam that might not have a lot of adoption outside of the country. Exact use case, hard to say, but I think this is a reasonable expectation. Okay.

I think there's, like, oh, Matt, if you want to add? I think there's a slightly similar question which is maybe connected, which is what should people build here? Any ideas, like the kind of apps or even the infrastructure built in Southeast Asia? I think end of the day, you have to really, like, see what's your strength, what's your weakness, right? And, like, who do you have in the team?

And decide on the product that really fits with your background. You actually spend a lot of time, like, talking to the founders and also, like, try to analyze and have them realize what should be the best thing for them to build. And, of course, if they get, like, advisors, like, talk to people like Tian and Matt and see what they are, what they think is cool to build, I think it's also, like, a good source of, like, ideas. Yeah. So I just want to add that do something that you're passionate about and that you're good at.

Go for those two and you will have a very high chance of success regardless of what it is. Thank you. Okay, well, unfortunately, we've run out of time. Thank you so much to everyone who has put up questions. Maybe feel free to talk to the speakers after this panel is over.

So let's give a big round of applause to our panelists. It's been awesome to have you guys.